Fencing

[redfiona99]

British Fencing are being sneaky fuckwits, again.

Email has gone out saying they (and Hertfordshire Uni) are conducting a survey on British Fencing's members views on transpeople and fencing.

Which gives the loud objectionable minority a chance to be heard over the silent (and basically uncaring either way) majority.

Have added my voice to try and counter-balance (I even phrased it as "I have to compete against cis-men at local competitions, and I don't finish last so I don't think trans-inclusion is going to negatively affect me").

BF's plan appears to be have "open" and "women's". I've raised the concern that it's going to encourage smaller competitions not to run a women's, which urgh. Partly because I'm old enough to remember when they didn't, and partly because I know many competition organisers would like nothing more than not to run 3 competitions, and they have a particular hatred/dislike/determination to ruin women's fencing.

Comments

[ioplokon]

It's good you participated. Obviously sports governing bodies can do whatever they want with eligibility, but ideally they'd try to be maximally inclusive while also balancing competitiveness & depth of field... (& base trans and intersex inclusion on evidence vs popular opinion + create a framework to protect athletes' privacy...)

I would be cautious about being too down on mixed competition, though, lest they go the route of British rugby and state that it is inherently unsafe for women to play anyone who's gone through androgenic puberty...

[redfiona99]

We're pretty safe on them nixing mixed because there's just not enough female fencers to insist on segregation (sabre is about 1 to 10 ratio, foil and epee maybe 3 to 10). The only reason I mentioned the fear of cutting women's competitions is that I've heard one too many competition organiser "joke" about getting rid of at least one of the women's events, and it took the Elite Epee (name of competition, not the standard also not directly run by our governing body) 3 years to also run women's competitions.

There's nothing in the rules that say you have to run both and as hall hire fees go up ... I have the fear.

[ioplokon]

There's nothing in the rules that say you have to run both and as hall hire fees go up ... I have the fear.

Yeah :( I keep thinking that, outside of elite competition, which is its own thing, we need more disorganized/decentralized sport BUT the material barriers to running unsanctioned feds are too high bc of like, decades' lack of investment in recreation facilities. (& I actually think women's competition are probably most beneficial for non-elite women? Idk, what's your experience/preference? I don't know enough about fencing to really have an opinion)

Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[redfiona99]

Fencing is odd because of the swords, so a lot of halls won't have us (despite the fact that it's one of the safest sports and you have to go some/wear unsuitable gear to injure yourself*), and clubs sign up to British Fencing for the insurance.

British Fencing (in one of the rare occasions I will be nice about them) do try to ensure there's competitions at every level, and that you pay different membership costs depending on how much you want to compete. You can have "training" membership (which is like £10 a year but no competitions), "recreational" (£25, allows you to do local friendlies but not opens) and "full" (£50, any competition you want).

Pers. experience but the "why" of why women and men don't like to do competitions feels quite different (also with the understanding that I'm an outlier in the women because I like competing).

A lot of women (particularly those who've taken it up late, where late is >13 years of age) don't want to compete, but with this vibe of "women like me don't do competitive sport". I see it as my role to encourage them to do just one, like a local friendly, to see if they actually don't like it or if it's something they've been told they don't like. End result is about 50-50. I find it interesting because I'm 50-60th in the country but I know there are many, many women at clubs who are better than me but just don't compete, some for good reasons and some for bad (with women it's about 1/4 compete, 3/4 don't). I'd rather have them compete and be lower than be without them, because my thing is the bit between the pret and the halt.**

With men who don't compete (with a couple of exceptions), it tends to be "I don't compete because I don't want to/haven't the money/have better things to do" hiding "because I will lose and I don't like losing". This is only 1/4 me being mean, because I have to fence a lot of these guys and they're the sort who do well at club, because they fence "awkward (and often hit painfully hard)" but the minute they come up against actually good, they lose horribly (and normally with much stomping). (The split in the men is about 3/4 compete, 1/4 don't, with some variation by age and class).

British Fencing are also doing their best to encourage smaller local competitions at the minute so that there's more opportunity for people to dip their toes in competing without large travel costs.

* one of my academic sports great-grandchildren (possibly a great-great now I think about it) was the cause of the most recent sabre rule update, so I'm allowed to phrase it that way. He's fine and so's his hand.

** I've spent time thinking about that. 'Orrible ex-team mate used to ask why I bothered competing because I am never going to win an Open, and I explained that its because I enjoy spending the time figuring out how to hit/how not to get him by my immediate opponent. Newer, less horrible team mate really likes that answer.

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[ioplokon]

Thanks! This is really interesting! (Also I didn't realize you were in the top 100; that's pretty amazing!)

I imagine one of the nice things on the women's side is that you can enter at a later age; men's sports is so over-optimized at this point that unless you began dedicated single-sport training at age 5, you're done. I personally think this is quite bad, actually. (I think all sports persons should be legally required to have an off-season where they smoke weed and drink beers for 3-4 months).

But yeah, even in women's sport, there is a weird distaste for women who are actually competitive. It seems like people just want all the girls to hug and cry at the end or whatever & it's like, no!

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[redfiona99]

Not directly related, but in the cross-country skiing, for the Tour de Ski (over Christmas and New Year mini tour) are now having the men and women ski over the same distance. In the 10 k Classic style (more arm-power dependent style), the women's winner was ~2 mins slower (and faster than some of the slower men) over the same course.

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[redfiona99]

Also while I am aware n=1, after 6 months off with a broken leg, and still not quite able to lunge, I could easily beat the 6th best men's foilist at the uni, and came within 1 point of the 4th best and they both have 20 years on me, so I stand by my answer to the survey.

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[ioplokon]

Also, unrelated, what's up with David Cameron being in the cabinet? Do you not have to be an MP? Could they like, make you transport secretary because they liked your response to the train survey so much?

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[redfiona99]

Fiona for Transport Secretary I can get behind. Sunak has pulled an interesting technical stunt, the details of which I am having to search up, where he's made Cameron a Lord so he can bring him into the cabinet. I am trying to figure out/hoping one of the papers covers the ins and outs of it. If I find anything useful, I will pass it on.

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[ioplokon]

Oh so you don't have to do like... a weird hearing to become a lord? I guess that makes sense, but I always imagined that like, Andrew Lloyd Weber bamboozled his countrymen through the power of song and stuff... (also, Lord Fiona, Transport Secretary is the plan we can all get behind!)

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[redfiona99]

I like the image of Andrew Lloyd Webber snake charming the appointments committee.

So there is an appointments committee who are supposed to weed out the truly terrible people, but that's about it, and the PM can over rule them

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[redfiona99]

The Guardian has provided https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/hes-not-an-mp-so-how-can-david-cameron-return-to-the-cabinet

Re: Far too many words about fencing (which only apply to the UK because our system is weird)

[ioplokon]

Love how they put themselves over at the end - 'we journalists will hold him to account; should be interesting!'

[redfiona99]

If you want British Fencing's update on this do say, they have communicated.